Main Thing Podcast
This podcast encourages others to love God and people by leading them to know and follow Jesus’ truth.
Main Thing Podcast
Wheat and Weeds: Navigating Good and Evil in God's Kingdom
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Pastor Steve explores the parable of the wheat and weeds from Matthew 13:24-30, revealing crucial insights about God's kingdom and how we should respond to evil in our midst.
• Evil coexists with good because God gives everyone opportunity to choose Him and respond to His mercy
• Spiritual discipline in churches should be practiced with love, protecting both individuals and the congregation
• Christians should trust church leadership until given reason not to, rather than assuming the worst
• Satan always has representatives working within churches to cause division and destruction
• Until a person's final breath, opportunity for repentance remains - God desires all to come to Him
Welcome to The Main Thing Podcast
Speaker 1Amen reminder for us to recall in today's divisive and dark culture , From foundational truths and scripture to the hot topics of today's culture . Allow this podcast to inspire and motivate you on your faith journey .
Speaker 2Welcome back to the Main Thing podcast with Pastor Steve . So glad you guys have joined us today as we look at another parable in the book of Matthew , and so I'm going to go ahead and get started by reading the parable of the wheat and the weeds . So let's take a look at the scripture . It's Matthew 13 , 24 through 30 . And it says he presented another parable to them the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field , but while people were sleeping , his enemy came , sowed weeds among the wheat and left when the plants sprouted and produced grain . Then the and he said An enemy did this . So do you want us to go and gather them up ? The slaves asked him . No , he said when you gather up the weeds , you might also uproot the wheat with them . Let both grow together until the harvest . In a harvest time I'll tell the reapers gather the weeds first and tie them in bundles to burn them , but store the wheat in my barn .
Speaker 2So as we get ready to discuss , let's welcome Pastor Steve back to the Manly Thing podcast . Pastor , thank you for being here today . Absolutely as always , we appreciate you being with us . So this parable , this , is one of those that we don't probably read a whole bunch about or hear much about in the Bible , but it's obviously very important . So just initial thoughts . What's Jesus talking about in this parable ?
The Parable of Wheat and Weeds
Speaker 3Oh wow . I think he's talking about the overall picture of the kingdom of God of the kingdom of God .
Speaker 3As I understand it , the farmer doing the planting represents Christ , the field represents the world , the wheat represents the children of God and the weeds or the tares represent those that are not the children of God . Because we know , scripture teaches you're either a friend of God or you're an enemy of God , and so I think that's where the word enemy comes in in that passage . If you're not part of his family , then you're an enemy to his family and of course , the enemy would be Satan . Yeah .
Speaker 2So is this parable ? Is he talking about , like , if we put it in a modern context , is he talking about the local church or the church in general ?
Speaker 3Well , yes , because the church is the children of God . You know , as we all know , it's not a building . It's the gathering of God's people , the redeemed , those who have been born again into the kingdom of God . And so , yeah , I think it's absolutely talking about the church .
Speaker 2So that brings up the question . I think that's where I want to start today why does God allow evil to coexist with good for so long ? Not just , maybe people , but just in general ? Why do we have evil and good together in this world ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I don't know that I have that answer . Just to be honest with you , there are a lot of answers I can give you , but there's speculation at best . I am a John 3.16 guy in my theology , so I believe that God gives us the opportunity to make a choice , and so we each get to choose if we want to be in the family of God or not in the family of God . And so the tares I think the weeds represent those who choose not to be in the family of God . And so you know . We know that the Bible teaches us , the ruler of this world is Satan , and so the weeds are the people in the family of Satan , they're his people , and while we're here on planet Earth , we have to deal with them . For whatever reason God chooses to leave them here , and not sure what that is , but we just have to trust in his sovereignty . I think that it has a purpose .
Speaker 2You talked about why God would leave them there . Does that play into his mercy and judgment ?
Speaker 3Yes , it does . In today's world we're big on mercy and grace , and that's good we should be ,
Why Evil Coexists with Good
Speaker 3but we stop short of being big on judgment . And we all have mercy and grace for a period , and we respond to that mercy and grace and become one of God's children , or we don't . And there comes a period of time when God closes the curtain on one's life and at that point in time the opportunity for mercy and grace is over . It's now judgment . And so what happens in this parable ? I grew up on a small farm , so it's easy for me to understand . Oftentimes what you don't see is the roots will become intertangled below the soil , they're growing close together , and so you reach to pull that weed and inadvertently you pull the wheat stalk also . And I think what God is saying here is it's not time for the harvest yet , so we don't want to deal with that just yet , but when the time comes we'll deal with it then .
Speaker 2Look , you've been in pastoring for a long time . We'll say that how do you deal with these things ? We don't always know who it is , but we know there are people at Covenant that have no desire to follow Christ . They have no relationship with Christ , Practically speaking . How do we handle that ? You know you as a senior pastor , just as leaders in the church . How do you handle that ?
Speaker 3Well , you continue to teach Scripture faithfully . Well , you continue to teach Scripture faithfully and you deal with situations as they arise as biblically as you possibly can , because church in America is a public event . Anybody can come . You know , we don't reserve the right to throw people out . And as long as we're doing that , we're going to deal with the weeds . And so you're very careful , you try to be discerning . You don't put the weeds in leadership positions . You don't let them get influence in God's church , influence in God's church , and when they try to head off in a direction , as the pastor .
Speaker 3You got to try to hit that off and not let it go . And sometimes you just have to do a hard thing and you just have to pull it Now . You'd rather he pull it , yeah yeah , but sometimes it becomes it's evident that for the health of the congregation you got to do the best thing for the congregation and you may have to pull a weed once in a while . I've only pulled a few in my life , but I have pulled a few .
Speaker 2I've heard this multiple times over the years . I know you have heard it many , many times over the years . Somebody would say to you well , you're just being judgmental , and that is just as bad as what you're saying . I'm doing okay . Where's the difference between discernment and being judgmental ? Or is there any time we delve into that ?
Speaker 3Yeah , well , first of all , when people say that they have a misunderstanding of biblical judgment , people say that they have a misunderstanding of biblical judgment .
Speaker 3Biblical judgment in its simplest form is when Christ decides if you go into heaven or hell . In an expanded form if I look at a fellow Christian and they're doing something that is clearly dishonoring to the Lord and I call it to their attention ,
Handling the Weeds in Church
Speaker 3ideally my heart is right . I'm not trying to judge him , because judgment would be me deciding his eternal security . I'm not doing that . I'm simply trying to help that brother or sister come back into the fold . That's not judgment , that's care . And so oftentimes , when we're caring for people , we're accused of being judgmental , and so I'll say all the time look , I'm not your judge , but please understand , you do have one , because people who say that kind of statement tend to think nobody's their judge , but they do have one .
Speaker 2So you know , one of the things that has largely gone out of the Christian church over the years is spiritual discipline . Yes , why do you think churches have moved away from that ?
Speaker 3I can tell you why . I'm very careful to exercise it and I have exercised it over the years a few times , not many . I like to think I've headed off a lot of situations that would have ended up in a disciplined scenario , but I was able to coach or guide them to avoid that .
Speaker 2Which is how the Bible puts it right in Matthew . Right , right , I'm sorry , no , no .
Speaker 3I think that's just as important . I think the old saying a bulldog can whoop a skunk , but it's just not worth the stink . In today's church it tends to be the situation where church members who are not involved in the situation will believe anything in anybody other than their pastor . He's automatically got to be the bad guy . He's automatically at fault . Look what he did to so-and-so and see if you're discerning and biblical as a pastor , as you should be . You're not going to run around broadcasting . Yeah , I had a meeting with so-and-so and this is what I had to do . Okay , because that's just not a godly behavior . But so-and-so is going to go out of that meeting and they're going to tell everybody that'll listen how bad you've treated them and you're automatically guilty . So I honestly believe a lot of pastors have avoided spiritual discipline because , quite honestly , it just becomes this huge firestorm that you end up fighting
Church Discipline with Grace
Speaker 3.
Speaker 2One of the things I've noticed here over the years , because people have asked me do we even practice spiritual discipline ? And I say we do , but we don't broadcast it unless it's absolutely necessary . And that would be true , yeah , but we don't broadcast it , right , you know , unless it's absolutely necessary .
Speaker 3And that would be true , yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I think one of the big learning things I had very early on when I was here this was , you know , over 20 years ago is there was a situation that had to be dealt with early on and you and the personnel committee dealt with it . And then I remember you meeting with a specific group of people . That would have been a part of what was dealt with . You explained what happened but you didn't go into great detail , right , and I remember you gave the person needing to be disciplined graciousness and a dignity in that exit where you could have thrown that person under the bus to help everybody understand the true situation , but you didn't . And I remember that being very instructive for me back in the day because I learned sometimes when you're in ministry , you've got to take an unfair hit to be kind . Yes , and I just remember that one very vividly that it's hard .
Speaker 3It's hard and it's a fine line . I firmly believe something I was taught as a young pastor as a pastor , Jesus has to be your defender . What does that mean ? It means that you get up and do the right thing every day because it's the right thing to do , and you could easily say the biblical thing that's what I mean by the right thing every day , because it's the right thing to do , and you could easily say the biblical thing that's what I mean by the right thing and you treat people the way you know God would have you treat them . And then you know you can lay your head on your pillow at night and whatever they say about you , it really doesn't matter because you know right . Say about you it really doesn't matter because you know right . And what tends to happen in time is the truth will win out . Sometimes it's difficult because it doesn't win out right away .
Speaker 2Right , yeah .
Speaker 3And you go through a season of being bashed and lied about and defamed in your reputation and your character and you're sitting there biting your tongue in half , you know and you really want to just scream . Well , here's what you need to know , but you can't Not if you're going to be a person of integrity . And also , I think you hit on something that's important , brent . When you do practice discipline , I think it has to be done with the right heart and the right motives . It has to be because you love this person and you want the best for them . But when you're a pastor , you're charged by God also to do what's best for the congregation and sometimes those two intersect and you've got to choose , and that's a very difficult place . I think I remember the one you're talking about .
Speaker 3Individual had some issues . We met with the individual . We put the individual and his wife in counseling , paid for it , sent them to another town so nobody would even know they were in counseling , was very clear about expectations and in a matter of several months , same situation happened again and this individual already knew the decision . He was told this will be the decision if we have this again , if it doesn't change . And so I took a beating , a huge beating . I had people literally hate me because of that situation .
Speaker 3But the man had a wife and precious children young children and I wasn't going out there and embarrass his family and put his wife and children through the mud because he was struggling with some issues . Because what does Galatians , chapter 6 , teach us ? Be careful , because you can end up in that same place , right . And so I really do try to practice the golden rule . I'm sure I'm not perfect at it , but I really want to treat anybody I got to deal with in a difficult situation the way I hope I would be treated should I end up in that place .
Speaker 2So for a Christian member of a church , somebody who loves the Lord , trying to live the right way , trying to be a part of the church , okay , how should this effect , this particular parable , affect the way they would look at , say , church leadership or the pastor ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I think , and I think this is a fair statement , I would say it's true in any faction of life business , recreation , whatever You've got to trust your leaders until they give you a reason not to Mm-hmm . And so I've had people come up to me true story , so-and-so told me you did such-and-such , and I would look at them and say how long have I been your pastor ? Oh , 15 years . Okay , Do you ?
Speaker 1think .
Speaker 3I did that . Oh no , no , well , you must . You're asking me right have I done anything in 15 years that you've known me that will make you believe I would do that ? Well , no , then why are you asking me ? You know ,
Trusting Leadership and Discerning Weeds
Speaker 3yeah .
Speaker 2I remember you saying years ago . One of the things that's always stuck with me is the pastor never gets the benefit of the doubt . No no never . We tend to gravitate toward . If somebody said it , it must be true . So that's a hard place to be , I would imagine . Yes , yes .
Speaker 3Look , I learned this from Daryl Robinson . I was a senior in college . I took a class in his office . He wrote the book Total Church Life and at that time it was just a notebook , it wasn't a book . I still got the notebook and I remember him telling us there was only six of us in that class and he said listen to me , always understand , satan's always got his guy in church . He's always there , and so if you're naive enough to believe that he's not there , you're going to have some difficult days , you know . And we don't want to go there . We don't want to consider that we may actually have a man or a woman sitting out here . That's actually evil , but they're there .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah . Well , that brings up a good question I had written down here . Is it dangerous for us to decide if somebody's a weed and not a wheat , or are there signs where it makes it obvious ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I think that's a good question . I think for me it's got to be obvious . I'm not going to assume . Now in my spirit and God gave me a heavy dose of discernment I tell people it's a blessing and a curse , okay , because you see the good in people pretty quickly and you also see what's not so good in people pretty quickly , and you also see what's not so good in people pretty quickly . And so I may in my spirit think , hmm , that Bubba's trouble . But I'm not going to take the approach that that Bubba's trouble until he shows me his trouble , because my discernment's not 100% . I'm human . I have missed it right , sometimes I either . Look , we had a couple here . Uh , he's been gone on be of the lord many years ago . You'll remember . Uh , kensa , kensa , joyce heston's husband what was was his name Glenn Glenn .
Speaker 2Glenn , his son , is Ken .
Speaker 3I wanted to call him Ken , that's his son and he was an older man , shaved head , big old , thick coat , bottle glasses , and it was because he had such pure eyesight . When he would look at you it'd be like you know , like he's trying to stare a hole through you , and when I first met him and was around him a little bit , I thought that's got to be one of the meanest old men on planet Earth .
Speaker 3And then as I got to know him I was totally wrong . He was the sweetest spirit , kindest gentlest , you know . But he even talked kind of mean in his tone . You know he helped us with benevolence a lot over the years and he was just an old oil field hand . He was a little rough around the edges . He'd walk in and say what you need , you know , and he didn't mean it that way at all , but it's . It's just his demeanor made you think so you can be totally wrong . That's why I think you got to see action right , yeah , yeah , can be totally wrong .
Speaker 2That's why I think you got to see action , right , yeah , yeah . Last question I want to ask , uh , with this one , what do we do with people who don't realize their weeds ? Because I think that's a lot , that's , that's a lot of people who are that
God's Desire for All to Repent
Speaker 2you know , they may , they may think they have that relationship and they don't right or wrong .
Speaker 3The way I've handled it over the years is I have a meeting and I try to do the old beat around the bush be kind conversation , hope they get it , and if they don't , then we have a more pointed conversation and then , somewhere along the line , if it doesn't get any better , we have a very direct conversation . You can probably think of one . That was an example . I remember sitting in this individual's living room when this family came here and I said to them because I knew he had been the root cause of a church split before he came over here and I said look , if you feel the Lord's leading you to our church , you're welcome , but don't bring that garbage over here , leave it outside the door . And he couldn't do that .
Speaker 3And probably my flaw but I'll stand on it is I sometimes let things go too long and I probably , with this individual , let things go way too long . To the point I had deacons coming to me asking me when are you going to handle this guy ? And the day I finally decided to handle it , I had a deacon tell me if you don't do something about it , I am , it's time .
Speaker 3So I realized I got to do this . Didn't want to do it . About it , I am , it's time , so I realized I got to do this . Didn't want to do it , because it's not fun . It's not like if you enjoy giving out discipline , something's wrong with you . You don't need to be in a position where you can have that authority over people . Right ? The ones who crave authority don't need to have in a position where you can have that authority over people Right .
Speaker 2The ones who crave authority don't need to have it .
Speaker 3No , no no , you know , that's my favorite . That's my favorite saying the worst thing you can do is put a person in charge when they can't wait to be in charge . Because the old people used to call them straw bosses , because the old people used to call them straw bosses . They're a guy who has no authority on the job site , but he thinks he's everybody's boss , you know .
Speaker 2Yeah , you know . Another way I heard that over the years is if you have to tell people you're the leader , you're not the leader . Right , you know Right .
Speaker 3The leadership follows the law , and that's true in the pastor is anywhere Right ? Yeah , yes , Absolutely .
Speaker 2I want to finish up today just talking about 2 Peter 3.9 . You know , the Lord is not slack concerning his promises , as some would count slackness , but his desire is that we should all come to repentance . You know , and I think that's one of the reasons I would be , like you , a John 3.16 person . I think that verse is pretty clear . He desires all that would come to repentance and I think , when we think about the weeds , that's our goal , right . We want everybody to come to repentance .
Speaker 3That's right . That's right . See , this is where I come down on it . All of us , as we know Scripture , deserve death and hell , but God showed us grace and mercy . Deserve death and hell , but God showed us grace and mercy and not just us , I believe , to everyone he created . Why would he create someone ? That he created them just for the fun of sending them to hell ?
Speaker 3Hell was not designed , in my understanding of scripture , as a place for a group of people he prepared to go there , but a group of people who prepare themselves to go there . Hell is the opposite of the place he prepared for his children . It's a separate place . If you're not his child , you can't go to his house . And so , yeah , I think that until a human being breathes their last breath , there's always opportunity . And that's why , when you discipline people , you always got to do it with the right spirit and in love and hoping , because oftentimes in discipline , they've gone off the rails spiritually and you're hoping to bring them back into the fold and , quite honestly , most of the time you can't , because they're embarrassed or they're mad or offended that you would even bring it up with them Because they don't believe . I've noticed a person who's living in sin always has the position it's nobody else's business .
Speaker 2See so , yeah , yeah . I want to finish with a quote from CS Lewis , probably one of my favorite ones . He said you know , at the end of your life you will have either said to God , your will be done , or God will say to you , your will be done . Somebody's will is going to happen , but are we going to let God have his way with us ?
Speaker 2yes any final thoughts ? No , I'm good . Well , guys , as always . We appreciate you joining us . I hope this was helpful to you . Uh , I know it was an enjoyable conversation for me , so we'll see you guys next time .