Main Thing Podcast
This podcast encourages others to love God and people by leading them to know and follow Jesus’ truth.
Main Thing Podcast
Wheat and Weeds: Navigating Good and Evil in God's Kingdom
Pastor Steve explores the parable of the wheat and weeds from Matthew 13:24-30, revealing crucial insights about God's kingdom and how we should respond to evil in our midst.
• Evil coexists with good because God gives everyone opportunity to choose Him and respond to His mercy
• Spiritual discipline in churches should be practiced with love, protecting both individuals and the congregation
• Christians should trust church leadership until given reason not to, rather than assuming the worst
• Satan always has representatives working within churches to cause division and destruction
• Until a person's final breath, opportunity for repentance remains - God desires all to come to Him
Amen reminder for us to recall in today's divisive and dark culture, From foundational truths and scripture to the hot topics of today's culture. Allow this podcast to inspire and motivate you on your faith journey.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to the Main Thing podcast with Pastor Steve. So glad you guys have joined us today as we look at another parable in the book of Matthew, and so I'm going to go ahead and get started by reading the parable of the wheat and the weeds. So let's take a look at the scripture. It's Matthew 13, 24 through 30. And it says he presented another parable to them the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while people were sleeping, his enemy came, sowed weeds among the wheat and left when the plants sprouted and produced grain. Then the and he said An enemy did this. So do you want us to go and gather them up? The slaves asked him. No, he said when you gather up the weeds, you might also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. In a harvest time I'll tell the reapers gather the weeds first and tie them in bundles to burn them, but store the wheat in my barn.
Speaker 2:So as we get ready to discuss, let's welcome Pastor Steve back to the Manly Thing podcast. Pastor, thank you for being here today. Absolutely as always, we appreciate you being with us. So this parable, this, is one of those that we don't probably read a whole bunch about or hear much about in the Bible, but it's obviously very important. So just initial thoughts. What's Jesus talking about in this parable?
Speaker 3:Oh wow. I think he's talking about the overall picture of the kingdom of God of the kingdom of God.
Speaker 3:As I understand it, the farmer doing the planting represents Christ, the field represents the world, the wheat represents the children of God and the weeds or the tares represent those that are not the children of God. Because we know, scripture teaches you're either a friend of God or you're an enemy of God, and so I think that's where the word enemy comes in in that passage. If you're not part of his family, then you're an enemy to his family and of course, the enemy would be Satan. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So is this parable? Is he talking about, like, if we put it in a modern context, is he talking about the local church or the church in general?
Speaker 3:Well, yes, because the church is the children of God. You know, as we all know, it's not a building. It's the gathering of God's people, the redeemed, those who have been born again into the kingdom of God. And so, yeah, I think it's absolutely talking about the church.
Speaker 2:So that brings up the question. I think that's where I want to start today why does God allow evil to coexist with good for so long? Not just, maybe people, but just in general? Why do we have evil and good together in this world?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know that I have that answer. Just to be honest with you, there are a lot of answers I can give you, but there's speculation at best. I am a John 3.16 guy in my theology, so I believe that God gives us the opportunity to make a choice, and so we each get to choose if we want to be in the family of God or not in the family of God. And so the tares I think the weeds represent those who choose not to be in the family of God. And so you know. We know that the Bible teaches us, the ruler of this world is Satan, and so the weeds are the people in the family of Satan, they're his people, and while we're here on planet Earth, we have to deal with them. For whatever reason God chooses to leave them here, and not sure what that is, but we just have to trust in his sovereignty. I think that it has a purpose.
Speaker 2:You talked about why God would leave them there. Does that play into his mercy and judgment?
Speaker 3:Yes, it does. In today's world we're big on mercy and grace, and that's good we should be, but we stop short of being big on judgment. And we all have mercy and grace for a period, and we respond to that mercy and grace and become one of God's children, or we don't. And there comes a period of time when God closes the curtain on one's life and at that point in time the opportunity for mercy and grace is over. It's now judgment. And so what happens in this parable? I grew up on a small farm, so it's easy for me to understand. Oftentimes what you don't see is the roots will become intertangled below the soil, they're growing close together, and so you reach to pull that weed and inadvertently you pull the wheat stalk also. And I think what God is saying here is it's not time for the harvest yet, so we don't want to deal with that just yet, but when the time comes we'll deal with it then.
Speaker 2:Look, you've been in pastoring for a long time. We'll say that how do you deal with these things? We don't always know who it is, but we know there are people at Covenant that have no desire to follow Christ. They have no relationship with Christ, Practically speaking. How do we handle that? You know you as a senior pastor, just as leaders in the church. How do you handle that?
Speaker 3:Well, you continue to teach Scripture faithfully. Well, you continue to teach Scripture faithfully and you deal with situations as they arise as biblically as you possibly can, because church in America is a public event. Anybody can come. You know, we don't reserve the right to throw people out. And as long as we're doing that, we're going to deal with the weeds. And so you're very careful, you try to be discerning. You don't put the weeds in leadership positions. You don't let them get influence in God's church, influence in God's church, and when they try to head off in a direction, as the pastor.
Speaker 3:You got to try to hit that off and not let it go. And sometimes you just have to do a hard thing and you just have to pull it Now. You'd rather he pull it, yeah yeah, but sometimes it becomes it's evident that for the health of the congregation you got to do the best thing for the congregation and you may have to pull a weed once in a while. I've only pulled a few in my life, but I have pulled a few.
Speaker 2:I've heard this multiple times over the years. I know you have heard it many, many times over the years. Somebody would say to you well, you're just being judgmental, and that is just as bad as what you're saying. I'm doing okay. Where's the difference between discernment and being judgmental? Or is there any time we delve into that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, first of all, when people say that they have a misunderstanding of biblical judgment, people say that they have a misunderstanding of biblical judgment.
Speaker 3:Biblical judgment in its simplest form is when Christ decides if you go into heaven or hell. In an expanded form if I look at a fellow Christian and they're doing something that is clearly dishonoring to the Lord and I call it to their attention, ideally my heart is right. I'm not trying to judge him, because judgment would be me deciding his eternal security. I'm not doing that. I'm simply trying to help that brother or sister come back into the fold. That's not judgment, that's care. And so oftentimes, when we're caring for people, we're accused of being judgmental, and so I'll say all the time look, I'm not your judge, but please understand, you do have one, because people who say that kind of statement tend to think nobody's their judge, but they do have one.
Speaker 2:So you know, one of the things that has largely gone out of the Christian church over the years is spiritual discipline. Yes, why do you think churches have moved away from that?
Speaker 3:I can tell you why. I'm very careful to exercise it and I have exercised it over the years a few times, not many. I like to think I've headed off a lot of situations that would have ended up in a disciplined scenario, but I was able to coach or guide them to avoid that.
Speaker 2:Which is how the Bible puts it right in Matthew. Right, right, I'm sorry, no, no.
Speaker 3:I think that's just as important. I think the old saying a bulldog can whoop a skunk, but it's just not worth the stink. In today's church it tends to be the situation where church members who are not involved in the situation will believe anything in anybody other than their pastor. He's automatically got to be the bad guy. He's automatically at fault. Look what he did to so-and-so and see if you're discerning and biblical as a pastor, as you should be. You're not going to run around broadcasting. Yeah, I had a meeting with so-and-so and this is what I had to do. Okay, because that's just not a godly behavior. But so-and-so is going to go out of that meeting and they're going to tell everybody that'll listen how bad you've treated them and you're automatically guilty. So I honestly believe a lot of pastors have avoided spiritual discipline because, quite honestly, it just becomes this huge firestorm that you end up fighting.
Speaker 2:One of the things I've noticed here over the years, because people have asked me do we even practice spiritual discipline? And I say we do, but we don't broadcast it unless it's absolutely necessary. And that would be true, yeah, but we don't broadcast it, right, you know, unless it's absolutely necessary.
Speaker 3:And that would be true, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think one of the big learning things I had very early on when I was here this was, you know, over 20 years ago is there was a situation that had to be dealt with early on and you and the personnel committee dealt with it. And then I remember you meeting with a specific group of people. That would have been a part of what was dealt with. You explained what happened but you didn't go into great detail, right, and I remember you gave the person needing to be disciplined graciousness and a dignity in that exit where you could have thrown that person under the bus to help everybody understand the true situation, but you didn't. And I remember that being very instructive for me back in the day because I learned sometimes when you're in ministry, you've got to take an unfair hit to be kind. Yes, and I just remember that one very vividly that it's hard.
Speaker 3:It's hard and it's a fine line. I firmly believe something I was taught as a young pastor as a pastor, Jesus has to be your defender. What does that mean? It means that you get up and do the right thing every day because it's the right thing to do, and you could easily say the biblical thing that's what I mean by the right thing every day, because it's the right thing to do, and you could easily say the biblical thing that's what I mean by the right thing and you treat people the way you know God would have you treat them. And then you know you can lay your head on your pillow at night and whatever they say about you, it really doesn't matter because you know right. Say about you it really doesn't matter because you know right. And what tends to happen in time is the truth will win out. Sometimes it's difficult because it doesn't win out right away.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah.
Speaker 3:And you go through a season of being bashed and lied about and defamed in your reputation and your character and you're sitting there biting your tongue in half, you know and you really want to just scream. Well, here's what you need to know, but you can't Not if you're going to be a person of integrity. And also, I think you hit on something that's important, brent. When you do practice discipline, I think it has to be done with the right heart and the right motives. It has to be because you love this person and you want the best for them. But when you're a pastor, you're charged by God also to do what's best for the congregation and sometimes those two intersect and you've got to choose, and that's a very difficult place. I think I remember the one you're talking about.
Speaker 3:Individual had some issues. We met with the individual. We put the individual and his wife in counseling, paid for it, sent them to another town so nobody would even know they were in counseling, was very clear about expectations and in a matter of several months, same situation happened again and this individual already knew the decision. He was told this will be the decision if we have this again, if it doesn't change. And so I took a beating, a huge beating. I had people literally hate me because of that situation.
Speaker 3:But the man had a wife and precious children young children and I wasn't going out there and embarrass his family and put his wife and children through the mud because he was struggling with some issues. Because what does Galatians, chapter 6, teach us? Be careful, because you can end up in that same place, right. And so I really do try to practice the golden rule. I'm sure I'm not perfect at it, but I really want to treat anybody I got to deal with in a difficult situation the way I hope I would be treated should I end up in that place.
Speaker 2:So for a Christian member of a church, somebody who loves the Lord, trying to live the right way, trying to be a part of the church, okay, how should this effect, this particular parable, affect the way they would look at, say, church leadership or the pastor?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, and I think this is a fair statement, I would say it's true in any faction of life business, recreation, whatever You've got to trust your leaders until they give you a reason not to Mm-hmm. And so I've had people come up to me true story, so-and-so told me you did such-and-such, and I would look at them and say how long have I been your pastor? Oh, 15 years. Okay, Do you?
Speaker 1:think.
Speaker 3:I did that. Oh no, no, well, you must. You're asking me right have I done anything in 15 years that you've known me that will make you believe I would do that? Well, no, then why are you asking me? You know, yeah.
Speaker 2:I remember you saying years ago. One of the things that's always stuck with me is the pastor never gets the benefit of the doubt. No no never. We tend to gravitate toward. If somebody said it, it must be true. So that's a hard place to be, I would imagine. Yes, yes.
Speaker 3:Look, I learned this from Daryl Robinson. I was a senior in college. I took a class in his office. He wrote the book Total Church Life and at that time it was just a notebook, it wasn't a book. I still got the notebook and I remember him telling us there was only six of us in that class and he said listen to me, always understand, satan's always got his guy in church. He's always there, and so if you're naive enough to believe that he's not there, you're going to have some difficult days, you know. And we don't want to go there. We don't want to consider that we may actually have a man or a woman sitting out here. That's actually evil, but they're there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, that brings up a good question I had written down here. Is it dangerous for us to decide if somebody's a weed and not a wheat, or are there signs where it makes it obvious?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think for me it's got to be obvious. I'm not going to assume. Now in my spirit and God gave me a heavy dose of discernment I tell people it's a blessing and a curse, okay, because you see the good in people pretty quickly and you also see what's not so good in people pretty quickly, and you also see what's not so good in people pretty quickly. And so I may in my spirit think, hmm, that Bubba's trouble. But I'm not going to take the approach that that Bubba's trouble until he shows me his trouble, because my discernment's not 100%. I'm human. I have missed it right, sometimes I either. Look, we had a couple here. Uh, he's been gone on be of the lord many years ago. You'll remember. Uh, kensa, kensa, joyce heston's husband what was was his name Glenn Glenn.
Speaker 2:Glenn, his son, is Ken.
Speaker 3:I wanted to call him Ken, that's his son and he was an older man, shaved head, big old, thick coat, bottle glasses, and it was because he had such pure eyesight. When he would look at you it'd be like you know, like he's trying to stare a hole through you, and when I first met him and was around him a little bit, I thought that's got to be one of the meanest old men on planet Earth.
Speaker 3:And then as I got to know him I was totally wrong. He was the sweetest spirit, kindest gentlest, you know. But he even talked kind of mean in his tone. You know he helped us with benevolence a lot over the years and he was just an old oil field hand. He was a little rough around the edges. He'd walk in and say what you need, you know, and he didn't mean it that way at all, but it's. It's just his demeanor made you think so you can be totally wrong. That's why I think you got to see action right, yeah, yeah, can be totally wrong.
Speaker 2:That's why I think you got to see action, right, yeah, yeah. Last question I want to ask, uh, with this one, what do we do with people who don't realize their weeds? Because I think that's a lot, that's, that's a lot of people who are that you know, they may, they may think they have that relationship and they don't right or wrong.
Speaker 3:The way I've handled it over the years is I have a meeting and I try to do the old beat around the bush be kind conversation, hope they get it, and if they don't, then we have a more pointed conversation and then, somewhere along the line, if it doesn't get any better, we have a very direct conversation. You can probably think of one. That was an example. I remember sitting in this individual's living room when this family came here and I said to them because I knew he had been the root cause of a church split before he came over here and I said look, if you feel the Lord's leading you to our church, you're welcome, but don't bring that garbage over here, leave it outside the door. And he couldn't do that.
Speaker 3:And probably my flaw but I'll stand on it is I sometimes let things go too long and I probably, with this individual, let things go way too long. To the point I had deacons coming to me asking me when are you going to handle this guy? And the day I finally decided to handle it, I had a deacon tell me if you don't do something about it, I am, it's time.
Speaker 3:So I realized I got to do this. Didn't want to do it. About it, I am, it's time, so I realized I got to do this. Didn't want to do it, because it's not fun. It's not like if you enjoy giving out discipline, something's wrong with you. You don't need to be in a position where you can have that authority over people. Right? The ones who crave authority don't need to have in a position where you can have that authority over people Right.
Speaker 2:The ones who crave authority don't need to have it.
Speaker 3:No, no no, you know, that's my favorite. That's my favorite saying the worst thing you can do is put a person in charge when they can't wait to be in charge. Because the old people used to call them straw bosses, because the old people used to call them straw bosses. They're a guy who has no authority on the job site, but he thinks he's everybody's boss, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. Another way I heard that over the years is if you have to tell people you're the leader, you're not the leader. Right, you know Right.
Speaker 3:The leadership follows the law, and that's true in the pastor is anywhere Right? Yeah, yes, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I want to finish up today just talking about 2 Peter 3.9. You know, the Lord is not slack concerning his promises, as some would count slackness, but his desire is that we should all come to repentance. You know, and I think that's one of the reasons I would be, like you, a John 3.16 person. I think that verse is pretty clear. He desires all that would come to repentance and I think, when we think about the weeds, that's our goal, right. We want everybody to come to repentance.
Speaker 3:That's right. That's right. See, this is where I come down on it. All of us, as we know Scripture, deserve death and hell, but God showed us grace and mercy. Deserve death and hell, but God showed us grace and mercy and not just us, I believe, to everyone he created. Why would he create someone? That he created them just for the fun of sending them to hell?
Speaker 3:Hell was not designed, in my understanding of scripture, as a place for a group of people he prepared to go there, but a group of people who prepare themselves to go there. Hell is the opposite of the place he prepared for his children. It's a separate place. If you're not his child, you can't go to his house. And so, yeah, I think that until a human being breathes their last breath, there's always opportunity. And that's why, when you discipline people, you always got to do it with the right spirit and in love and hoping, because oftentimes in discipline, they've gone off the rails spiritually and you're hoping to bring them back into the fold and, quite honestly, most of the time you can't, because they're embarrassed or they're mad or offended that you would even bring it up with them Because they don't believe. I've noticed a person who's living in sin always has the position it's nobody else's business.
Speaker 2:See so, yeah, yeah. I want to finish with a quote from CS Lewis, probably one of my favorite ones. He said you know, at the end of your life you will have either said to God, your will be done, or God will say to you, your will be done. Somebody's will is going to happen, but are we going to let God have his way with us?
Speaker 2:yes any final thoughts? No, I'm good. Well, guys, as always. We appreciate you joining us. I hope this was helpful to you. Uh, I know it was an enjoyable conversation for me, so we'll see you guys next time.